A lesson and a poll
Cate
an informal system with them. We've each agreed to not let our dogs out
for a pee if the others' dog(s) are already out.
Monday night our system failed. I failed to see through some tree
branches and didn't notice that their two dogs (one dog-aggressive, one
not--at least not toward Orson) were already out.
Orson paid with bite wounds, 3 vet visits, surgery, a drain in his leg,
a scary swollen frankenfoot, a nasty limp, aggravated arthritis, and 10
days of no exercise.
We paid with our wallets: $1400 so far. Also, with guilt. My guilt is
somewhat assuaged knowing I was able to hold the 100lb dog to keep it
from potentially becoming a 2-on-1.
My lesson, for anyone who needs one, is no matter how many times
something has worked in the past, don't assume it always will. Also
don't assume just because the 10yo, 40lb dog is an absolute darling
with people that she won't try to kill your 80lb dog. (I did not assume
this, but it occurs to me someone might.)
The poll
How much, if any, would you ask the neighbor to pay toward the vet
bills, if the following were true:
- Your dog was attacked on your property.
- The attack was sustained (shaking, re-gripping), not just a
bite-and-run.
- The attacking dog had attacked other dogs before.
- Both you and the neighbor were negligent as far as making sure no one
was already outside.
Cate
p.s. Just since I haven't been here in a while: Orson also had colon
polyp surgery in August. It's been a rough few months for him.
Jeff Dege
>
> The poll
> How much, if any, would you ask the neighbor to pay toward the vet
> bills, if the following were true:
> - Your dog was attacked on your property.
> - The attack was sustained (shaking, re-gripping), not just a
> bite-and-run.
> - The attacking dog had attacked other dogs before.
> - Both you and the neighbor were negligent as far as making sure no one
> was already outside.
If you took it to court, the judge would almost certainly find that the
neighbor was 100% responsible.
To allow a known aggressive dog loose, off-leash, in an unfenced yard,
is criminal. That dog should either be put down, or kept secured -
leashed and muzzled - for the rest of its life.
--
Freedom is not empowerment. Empowerment is what the Serbs have in
Bosnia. Anybody can grab a gun and be empowered. It's not entitlement. An
entitlement is what people on welfare get, and how free are they? It's
not an endlessly expanding list of rights - the 'right' to education,
the 'right' to health care, the 'right' to food and housing. That's not
freedom, that's dependency. Those aren't rights, those are the rations
of slavery - hay and a barn for human cattle.
-- P.J. O'Rourke
sighthounds & siberians
Half. If I were the neighbor, I would offer more.
So sorry this happened. Poor Orson; it sounds as though he could use
a run of good health - - I hope he gets it.
Mustang Sally
Melinda Shore
If I were the neighbor I think I'd offer to pay for the
whole thing. I might be inclined to ask for it depending on
circumstances (mostly on the neighbor's attitude and
willingness to correct the problem, somewhat on their
financial circumstances).
It seems to me that there are (at least) two issues here: 1)
covering expenses, and 2) making sure that nothing like this
happens again. The apparently clueless neighbor needs some
disincentives for letting their marauding dog continue to
maraud. In a city or suburban setting those are probably
going to be economic (if they won't pay voluntarily, either
small claims court or a fine from the friendly local animal
control officers and their friendly local ticket books).
Out here in the boonies a dog that attacked people, pets, or
livestock off its own property would eventually get the 3-S
treatment (shoot, shovel, and shut up) from people who've
had enough.
--
Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis - sh...@panix.com
Make it a Sony-free holiday.
Sionnach
"Cate" <orson...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Orson paid with bite wounds, 3 vet visits, surgery, a drain in his leg,
> a scary swollen frankenfoot, a nasty limp, aggravated arthritis, and >10
> days of no exercise.
Ouch. Poor Orson! I hope he's feeling better.
> The poll
> How much, if any, would you ask the neighbor to pay toward the vet
> bills, if the following were true:
> - Your dog was attacked on your property.
> - The attack was sustained (shaking, re-gripping), not just a
> bite-and-run.
> - The attacking dog had attacked other dogs before.
> - Both you and the neighbor were negligent as far as making sure no one
> was already outside.
Since they are the ones who failed to control their KNOWN dangerously
aggressive dog, IMO the burden of fault lies with them. You should NOT be
having to look around for their dog every time you take your dog out on your
own property!!!
As far as what they should pay, IMO they should foot the entire bill. I
believe they are legally entirely responsible, since the attack ocurred on
your property, and they *knew* their dog was aggressive.
I'd think also be asking/requiring them to either foot the entire cost
ofthe cost of installing secure fencing between the yards, or having the dog
leashed at all times. If they did not agree, I'd be taking them to court.
Furthermore, I *would* be reporting the incident to A.C. and/or the police,
since the dog is a repeat offender.
Rocky
> Monday night our system failed.
I'm really and truly sorry for all of the dogs' injuries, but
were you out there with them?
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
culprit
"Cate" <orson...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1133492387....@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> There is no fence between our neighbors' house and ours (yet). We have
> an informal system with them. We've each agreed to not let our dogs out
> for a pee if the others' dog(s) are already out.
>
> Monday night our system failed. I failed to see through some tree
> branches and didn't notice that their two dogs (one dog-aggressive, one
> not--at least not toward Orson) were already out.
> The poll
> How much, if any, would you ask the neighbor to pay toward the vet
> bills, if the following were true:
> - Your dog was attacked on your property.
> - The attack was sustained (shaking, re-gripping), not just a
> bite-and-run.
> - The attacking dog had attacked other dogs before.
> - Both you and the neighbor were negligent as far as making sure no one
> was already outside.
>
i would think your neighbors would offer to pay at least half, out of
kindness or guilt. i know i would. however, if their dogs were already
out, and you let yours out second, you technically are responsible for the
break in the "system".
it doesn't matter who's property it happened on, since you've basically
agreed to share property until you get a fence installed.
that's what dog aggressive breeds do (i'm guessing pit?). if i shared a
yard with another dog aggressive breed, my dogs would be out on leash,
especially at night. it's just safer for everyone.
so you're both negligent, and you're both responsible for the incident. you
knew the other dog was aggressive, and you agreed to share the yard. i
don't think you should or can take any sort of legal action here, and i
don't think you can hold it against your neighbor with a clear conscience.
if i were the neighbor, however, besides chipping in for vet bills, i'd
probably bring you flowers, a get well card, and the biggest chew toy i
could find.
-kelly
White Monkey
>
> I'm really and truly sorry for all of the dogs' injuries, but
> were you out there with them?
She says this in the original post: "My guilt is somewhat assuaged knowing
I was able to hold the 100lb dog to keep it
from potentially becoming a 2-on-1." That sounds like she was out there.
--Katrina
chris jung
>
> The poll
> How much, if any, would you ask the neighbor to pay toward the vet
> bills, if the following were true:
> - Your dog was attacked on your property.
> - The attack was sustained (shaking, re-gripping), not just a
> bite-and-run.
> - The attacking dog had attacked other dogs before.
> - Both you and the neighbor were negligent as far as making sure no one
> was already outside.
>
> Cate
> p.s. Just since I haven't been here in a while: Orson also had colon
> polyp surgery in August. It's been a rough few months for him.
Poor Orson! I hope he feels better soon!
For what it's worth, I suspect that a court would decide in your favor since
this dog is known to be aggressive and the attack happened on your property.
If I was your neighbor with the aggressive dog I would pay 100% with many
apologies, flowers to you and a big chewie for Orson, AND put in measures to
prevent this from ever happening again (get a fence or put the dog on a
trolley or on leash every time the dog is outside). However you are the one
who has to live next to this neighbor and I know that feuds have started
over stuff like this even though one party was clearly at fault. So you
gotta use diplomacy in this situation - I don't mean that you should be a
wimp but suing for damages would be bad start. Anyway, IMHO, more important
than the vet bills (big ouch!) is to get a good secure fence up right away.
Chris and her smoothies
Pablo & Lucy
shelly
>The poll
>How much, if any, would you ask the neighbor to pay toward the vet
>bills, if the following were true:
>- Your dog was attacked on your property.
>- The attack was sustained (shaking, re-gripping), not just a
>bite-and-run.
>- The attacking dog had attacked other dogs before.
>- Both you and the neighbor were negligent as far as making sure no one
>was already outside.
100%. and, i'd ask them to split the cost of a fence between
the two yards ASAP.
>p.s. Just since I haven't been here in a while: Orson also
>had colon polyp surgery in August. It's been a rough few
>months for him.
aw, poor guy!
--
shelly
http://www.cat-sidh.net
http://cat-sidh.blogspot.com/
Sionnach
"culprit" wrote:
>
> it doesn't matter who's property it happened on, since you've basically
> agreed to share property until you get a fence installed.
I'm 99.9% sure that the laws of Maryland would disagree with you. And in
any case, I don't believe Cate agreed to share property.
> that's what dog aggressive breeds do (i'm guessing pit?). if i shared >a
yard with another dog aggressive breed, my dogs would be out on >leash,
especially at night. it's just safer for everyone.
Which is why, IMO, her neighbors are idiots. The key thing, to me, is that
this dog has already attacked several other dogs - this is more than just
owning a dog of a breed with dog-aggression potential.
> you
> knew the other dog was aggressive, and you agreed to share the yard.
I don't see anything in Cate's post saying she agreed to share her
property with the neighbors; only that they agreed not to let their dog out
to attack hers on her own property, and she agreed to avoid taking her dog
out on her own property when their dog was out, to avoid being attacked.
>i
> don't think you should or can take any sort of legal action here,
I do - for the sake of the NEXT dog this dog may attack. Again, this is a
repeat offender, and her owners have NO business having her off a leash in
an unfenced area, regardless of the fact that said unfenced area is their
property.
She could just as easily attack someone walking by - and it sounds like
she *has* made such attacks in the past. If the authorities are not aware of
this, they should be.
Sorry, but I have zero tolerance for people with dogs they KNOW will do
damage who refuse to keep them properly confined and/or controlled.
Janet B
their heels and said:
>We paid with our wallets: $1400 so far. Also, with guilt. My guilt is
>somewhat assuaged knowing I was able to hold the 100lb dog to keep it
>from potentially becoming a 2-on-1.
>How much, if any, would you ask the neighbor to pay toward the vet
>bills, if the following were true:
>- Your dog was attacked on your property.
>- The attack was sustained (shaking, re-gripping), not just a
>bite-and-run.
>- The attacking dog had attacked other dogs before.
>- Both you and the neighbor were negligent as far as making sure no one
>was already outside.
I'd split it 50/50.
--
Janet B
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/bestfriendsobedience/album
Sionnach
"Sionnach" wrote:
> I do - for the sake of the NEXT dog this dog may attack.
Forgot to say:
Another key factor to me is that Cate mentioned that the dog is female,
and weighs 40 lbs. I can't remember if you were around when Cate was posting
more regularly, so I'm not sure if you're aware that Orson is a large male
Labrador - he's a good bit bigger than Brenin (I've met him), and Bren is 23
5.8" and nearly 60 lbs.
If Orson were smaller, he might not have survived this attack; what Cate
describes certainly sounds like intent to kill.
What if the next dog this dog goes after doesn't have the good fortune to
be twice her size?
Sionnach
"Sionnach" wrote:
> She could just as easily attack someone walking by
To clarify that:
I mean that if someone walks by on the street with a dog, she's highly
likely to go after the *dog*.
Janet B
clicked their heels and said:
>
> She could just as easily attack someone walking by - and it sounds like
>she *has* made such attacks in the past. If the authorities are not aware of
>this, they should be.
this dog fits the criteria for B City's vicious dog description. "A
dog who has attacked or bitten a human being or another animal or was
only prevented from doing so by a leash, fence, or other means."
Exceptions are trespass, abuse, protection of self or young. None of
those apply.
Cate
> If I were the neighbor I think I'd offer to pay for the
> whole thing. I might be inclined to ask for it depending on
> circumstances (mostly on the neighbor's attitude and
> willingness to correct the problem, somewhat on their
> financial circumstances).
Right after it happened, the owner did, more or less, offer to pay. He
actually said "let me know how much this costs." Stupidly, I said I'd
pay for the whole thing, because at that time, I assumed Orson needed
only about $100 worth of stitches and exam costs. I felt, and still
feel, that I equally share in the negligence that created the
situation, so it was probably my guilt that led me to refuse money.
When we got the estimate I realized I'd made a mistake refusing the
money. While Orson was in surgery, I left a phone message for the owner
that we needed to talk again about it, as I hadn't anticipated the
extent of care the dog would need, or the cost. I've yet to hear back
from him, but I think I will.
> It seems to me that there are (at least) two issues here: 1)
> covering expenses, and 2) making sure that nothing like this
> happens again. The apparently clueless neighbor needs some
> disincentives for letting their marauding dog continue to
> maraud. In a city or suburban setting those are probably
> going to be economic (if they won't pay voluntarily, either
> small claims court or a fine from the friendly local animal
> control officers and their friendly local ticket books).
Yeah, the money really isn't the issue for me. We need to fix the
problems that led to this situation in the first place.
Cate
Cate
> Ouch. Poor Orson! I hope he's feeling better.
He is, though I'm pissed that his arthritis has been made worse.
> Furthermore, I *would* be reporting the incident to A.C. and/or the police,
> since the dog is a repeat offender.
I don't feel I can elevate this to civil action unless the neighbors
become hostile or non-responsive. I just can't afford to make an enemy
of people who live 20 feet away. However, it didn't even occur to me to
report the incident. Oh, crap.
Cate
Cate
> "Cate" <orson...@yahoo.com> said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
>
> > Monday night our system failed.
>
> I'm really and truly sorry for all of the dogs' injuries, but
> were you out there with them?
Yes. I was 10 feet away from Orson. I always stand outside when he's
out there. We have a fenced yard, but our fence doesn't come up to our
back door. The fence-free distance from door to the gate of our yard is
about 20 feet. On a routine day, I spot for neighbor dogs, I let him
out, he runs down the deck stairs and into the fenced area, and I stand
on the deck and watch.
That night, I let him out and instantly saw the other dogs were out. He
tried to run into our yard (on our property the entire time), and she
silently ran over and attacked. She got to him before I could. (Her
owner was about 25 feet away.) The 100lb dog ran over too, and I
grabbed him while the smaller dog attacked Orson. The neighbor came and
kicked his dog off Orson.
Cate
Cate
> i would think your neighbors would offer to pay at least half, out of
> kindness or guilt. i know i would. however, if their dogs were already
> out, and you let yours out second, you technically are responsible for the
> break in the "system".
Morally, I agree.
> it doesn't matter who's property it happened on, since you've basically
> agreed to share property until you get a fence installed.
Actually, our properties abut each other, with no fence in between.
There is no agreement to share any property. It's our driveway that
bounds their yard. We try to park our cars in a way such that their
dogs have obstacles if they do come onto our property.
> that's what dog aggressive breeds do (i'm guessing pit?). if i shared a
> yard with another dog aggressive breed, my dogs would be out on leash,
> especially at night. it's just safer for everyone.
I agree that I have to take measures to protect my dog due to this
situation. And I feel negligent. However, I was already standing close
by, and I couldn't stop the attack. Having Orson on a leash wouldn't
have stopped it either, or even kept their dogs from coming onto my
property. This is the point at which the burden is on them to keep
their dogs on their own property.
Cate
shelly
>Morally, I agree.
i don't. as you noted, there's nothing *you* could have done
to stop this from happening. even if Orson had been on a
leash, the other dog would have been able to attack him. the
only solution is for you to not take your dog outside when
their dogs are outside. that seems to me to be a sucky
solution, as it impedes your ability to use your own property.
that's not okay in a legal or moral sense. it is your
neighbor's legal and moral responsibility to make sure his
dogs cannot harm others, not yours to hide from his dogs.
Cate
> Another key factor to me is that Cate mentioned that the dog is female,
> and weighs 40 lbs. I can't remember if you were around when Cate was posting
> more regularly, so I'm not sure if you're aware that Orson is a large male
> Labrador - he's a good bit bigger than Brenin (I've met him), and Bren is 23
> 5.8" and nearly 60 lbs.
>
> If Orson were smaller, he might not have survived this attack; what Cate
> describes certainly sounds like intent to kill.
> What if the next dog this dog goes after doesn't have the good fortune to
> be twice her size?
Well, this is what scares the living crap out of me. The attacking dog
was 40 pounds, and despite my lack of experience with dog attacks, she
certainly seemed like she was in it to win. Orson weighs 80 pounds. The
male dog she lives with weighs 100 pounds (with no visible fat, only
muscle) and is only 1 year old, still acting very much the puppy. He is
currently not dog-aggressive, but I'm afraid he's going to learn that
trait from the female. There's no doubt in my mind that if the male had
attacked Orson, Orson wouldn't have survived.
Also, these people live on the corner. A quiet street with many
pedestrians--lots of them walking dogs--abuts their unfenced yard. It
seems only a matter of time before a passing dog is attacked. Maybe
with an owner that isn't as concerned as I am about a feud between
neighbors.
Cate
cimawr
Cate wrote:
> Sionnach wrote:
>
> > Ouch. Poor Orson! I hope he's feeling better.
>
> He is, though I'm pissed that his arthritis has been made worse.
Glad to hear he's recovering.. and worse arthritis definitely
sucks. Given that Bren & I *both* have it, I can relate.
Hope *you're* feeling better, too - that must have been terrifying.
> I don't feel I can elevate this to civil action unless the neighbors
> become hostile or non-responsive.
I wouldn't, either - but from my perspective, they sound like
they're somewhat irresponsible to begin with. A dog capable of, and
with a history of, that sort of unprovoked attack should *never* be off
leash except in a securely fenced area.
Additionally, since they knew what she was capable of (I'm suspecting
that you weren't entirely aware of how serious her attack would be),
IMO they should have been actively notifying you any time they had the
dog outdoors, not putting the responsibility on you.
> I just can't afford to make an enemy
> of people who live 20 feet away.
Yes, that's always a concern.
>However, it didn't even occur to me to report the incident. Oh, crap.
Wonder if it's too late at this point?
Janet B
clicked their heels and said:
> it is your
>neighbor's legal and moral responsibility to make sure his
>dogs cannot harm others, not yours to hide from his dogs.
I agree with that! I can't imagine having to check before exiting my
house. Actually I can. We had this situation when visiting in-laws
in rural GA.
We didn't even stay 24 hours at that house (had been there for a week
in a vacation rental), because I had to erect my x-pen around the back
door, just so my dogs could pee without being attacked by the lab next
door (who came under the split rail fence and attacked them while I
held both of my dogs on leashes and grabbed the lab by the collar), or
the strutting Am Bulldog across the street (he had greeted our car
with hackles up and ready for action). Free wandering dogs are the
rule there, and we packed up and left fast.
Janet B
their heels and said:
>
> Wonder if it's too late at this point?
nope. BCAC will come take the dog and a hearing can be scheduled.
Cate
> I'd split it 50/50.
That's what I feel most comfortable with and plan to ask for, if he
ever calls me back. I dread his not calling me back about this. It
makes my stomach hurt to think that, in addition to my dog's injuries,
his trauma, and my cost, other outcomes could potentially include a
nasty neighbor feud and his dog being put down.
Janet, since you have the experience you do with the city dog
ordinances, I may contact you via email as this situation progresses.
If it progresses.
Cate
Janet B
their heels and said:
>
>Janet, since you have the experience you do with the city dog
>ordinances, I may contact you via email as this situation progresses.
>If it progresses.
please do. you can call me as well - e-mail for phone #.
Robin Nuttall
I don't blame you for your apprehension. Bad neighbors are just not fun.
But, on the other hand, no way should you be expected to swallow this
kind of expense caused by THEIR dog on YOUR property. I'm sure Janet
will help, but if he doesn't call back I'd make a copy of the bill and
present it to him, along with an offer to split the cost of a fence.
And, if you are good neighbors, a heartfelt and honest attempt to get
them to understand that this dog is a real problem and it is their
responsibility to keep it confined at all times.
cimawr
>were you out there with them?
Given that Orson's blind, and the yard's not fenced yet, I'm
betting Cate actually had him on leash.
shelly
>nope. BCAC will come take the dog and a hearing can be
>scheduled.
i really think that's what ought to be done. Orson survived
the attack, and will probably be okay, but there *will* be a
next attack, and the victim may not be so lucky. giving this
dog a free pass at this point is not a good idea, as the next
dog to be attacked doesn't deserve it anymore than Orson did.
if it were me, i would feel like it was my responsibility to
do what i could to ensure a next attack couldn't happen. the
first step would be reporting the attack on my dog.
shelly
>I agree with that! I can't imagine having to check before
>exiting my house. Actually I can. We had this situation
>when visiting in-laws in rural GA.
i've had to do it. i used to have a neighbor who had a
frequent visitor with dogs that he let run loose. they'd come
into my yard, which was a pain in my arse, because elliott
wanted to eat them. i was careful to make sure those dogs
weren't around before i went outside with elliott. in that
case, my dog would have been the aggressor, but it still
pissed me off, because i was unable to take my dog
outdoors--on my own property--because the neighbor's friend's
dogs would not get the hell out of my yard.
>(who came under the split rail fence and attacked them while
>I held both of my dogs on leashes and grabbed the lab by the
>collar), or the strutting Am Bulldog across the street (he
>had greeted our car with hackles up and ready for action).
yikes!
>Free wandering dogs are the rule there, and we packed up and
>left fast.
ugh. i don't blame you. roaming dogs are one of the things
that really pisses me off. i have *no* patience or sense of
humor about it.
Cate
> Hope *you're* feeling better, too - that must have been terrifying.
I felt better until I posted about it here and realized that I
essentially have the power to doom this dog.
> I wouldn't, either - but from my perspective, they sound like
> they're somewhat irresponsible to begin with. A dog capable of, and
> with a history of, that sort of unprovoked attack should *never* be off
> leash except in a securely fenced area.
I'm trying not to inject my emotions into this, but yeah, they're not
exactly models of responsibility.
It's also ironic to me that the dogs' ears are in tiny, harsh-looking
fighting crops. When the male was a puppy, the owners delighted in
having him wear a spiked collar.
Cate
shelly
>I felt better until I posted about it here and realized that
>I essentially have the power to doom this dog.
you do, but you also have the power to help insure that this
dog does not attack any other dogs.
Cate
> On 2 Dec 2005 05:51:35 -0800, "Cate" <orson...@yahoo.com>, clicked
> their heels and said:
>
> >
> >Janet, since you have the experience you do with the city dog
> >ordinances, I may contact you via email as this situation progresses.
> >If it progresses.
>
> please do. you can call me as well - e-mail for phone #.
One question first. Would my vet be obligated to report this attack?
Cate
cimawr
Cate wrote:
> It makes my stomach hurt to think that, in addition to my dog's injuries,
> his trauma, and my cost, other outcomes could potentially include a
> nasty neighbor feud and his dog being put down.
I totally understand that - having a bad relationship with next door
neighbors is something to be avoided if at all possible.
But I have to ask - what if the outcome of *not* doing anything
(should he fail to respond) is that another dog gets hurt or killed,
and/or that a human gets injured trying to break things up?
If I had reported my neighbor's dogs the second time they came in my
yard and went after Brenin (although no harm was done, it was
frightening), and others had reported similar incidents, perhaps
another neighbor would not have been bitten and had to face the
prospect of rabies shots in an advanced state of pregnancy.
When you talk to him - if he's halfway reasonable and discusses this
with you - IMO you should stress to him that you're not only concerned
about Orson's safety, but about the safety of others. How will HE feel
if the next dog she attacks is a small dog, and the dog dies? Or if a
child is walking the dog, and the child gets injured?
And if his dog is, as I strongly suspect, a Pit Bull, you might try
telling him that attacks like that are what are increasingly turning
other dog owners against his breed.
If I were in your place, I'd be telling him that I want to maintain a
friendly relationship, and I don't want to be forced to have to take
legal action, but that I won't be able to live with myself if another
dog gets hurt or killed.
Cate
However you are the one
> who has to live next to this neighbor and I know that feuds have started
> over stuff like this even though one party was clearly at fault. So you
> gotta use diplomacy in this situation - I don't mean that you should be a
> wimp but suing for damages would be bad start.
Yeah, I won't do that. I plan to ask for half and then maybe tell them
the reason I'm not asking for 100% is that I want them to be able to
afford a nice, secure fence that'll keep their dogs from attacking my
dog again. Or other dogs walking by.
Anyway, IMHO, more important
> than the vet bills (big ouch!) is to get a good secure fence up right away.
Yes. They'd actually been getting fence estimates the week before this
happened.
Cate
Melinda Shore
Cate <orson...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>I felt better until I posted about it here and realized that I
>essentially have the power to doom this dog.
That may be a good place to start with the neighbors - not
"I can have your dog killed if you don't pay up," but "you
need to understand that if your dog attacks another dog and
the owner reports it, the city can confiscate your dog and
have him destroyed." Their own dog's safety is at risk,
too, if they don't contain him.
--
Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis - sh...@panix.com
Prouder than ever to be a member of the reality-based community
Janet B
their heels and said:
>
>One question first. Would my vet be obligated to report this attack?
no. bites to humans have to be reported by dr's, but vets are under
no such obligation for a bitten animal.
Suja
"Cate" <orson...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> Orson paid with bite wounds, 3 vet visits, surgery, a drain in his leg,
> a scary swollen frankenfoot, a nasty limp, aggravated arthritis, and 10
> days of no exercise.
Poor guy! Hope he feels better soon.
> How much, if any, would you ask the neighbor to pay toward the vet
> bills, if the following were true:
I would definitely ask for half. If I were the neighbor, I'd pay for the
whole thing myself, just to keep the neighborly relations friendly.
Please make sure that this gets reported to AC. At a minimum, AC will make
sure that the dog is UTD on his rabies, and quarantine the dog. Unless this
dog has been reported before, she most likely won't be PTS, but the owners
will be required to take additional precautions prior to taking the dog out.
Neither Orson nor someone else's innocent dog needs to be subject to this.
Suja
cimawr
>happened.
That's a definite postive sign WRT their responsibility. And I think
your idea of telling them that you're only asking for half so as to
help them afford a fence ASAP is a good one.
However... here's a question for you:
Once they have the yard fenced, what do you think the odds are that
they'll leave the dogs out there unattended? If you think that's a
possibility, it might be worth making them aware - as much for their
sake as for anything else - that a fence preventing an attack won't
preclude their dog being deemed dangerous if they live in the city.
ceb
@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
> Monday night our system failed. I failed to see through some tree
> branches and didn't notice that their two dogs (one dog-aggressive, one
> not--at least not toward Orson) were already out.
>
Poor Orson! I'm sorry you and he had to go through this.
I find it absolutely unbelievable that a dog-aggressive dog would ever be
off-leash -- really, how hard is it to put the dog on a leash and walk
him outside to pee???
I really can't see how you bear any responsibility at all for this, and I
agree with Melinda that financial consequences may make your neighbors
think twice about leashing the dog in the future, or sinking some money
into a fence.
Although I am totally sympathetic to your desire not to make an enemy of
your neighbor. The idea of living next door to people who hate me scares
the crap out of me. So my feeling is that you should do what you feel
most comfortable doing, but know in your heart that you were not
responsible for this!
--
Catherine
& Zoe the cockerchow
& Queenie the black gold retriever
& Rosalie the calico
Janet B
their heels and said:
>
>That may be a good place to start with the neighbors - not
>"I can have your dog killed if you don't pay up," but "you
>need to understand that if your dog attacks another dog and
>the owner reports it, the city can confiscate your dog and
>have him destroyed." Their own dog's safety is at risk,
>too, if they don't contain him.
Indeed. Give them a copy of the Vicious Dog Law.
http://cityservices.baltimorecity.gov/charterandcodes/Digests/Digest%20-%20EnvrnmntlCtns.pdf
Pages 80 & 81
Pretty much, this dog will be killed by BCAC if it's impounded, even
with a hearing. I can tell you that if i was still on the hearing
board, we would not be able to find any exclusions. They need to take
this seriously. Technically, there dog could be deemed vicious even
without doing anything, by merely agressing at the fence line.
This all makes me very happy to have and always want to have, a "real"
fence (as opposed to an IF or just knowing my dogs are off leash
reliable with my supervision. Keeping other dogs OUT is a good thing!
Janet B
clicked their heels and said:
>
>Please make sure that this gets reported to AC. At a minimum, AC will make
>sure that the dog is UTD on his rabies, and quarantine the dog. Unless this
>dog has been reported before, she most likely won't be PTS, but the owners
>will be required to take additional precautions prior to taking the dog out.
>Neither Orson nor someone else's innocent dog needs to be subject to this.
there's no second chance in Baltimore city. This dog would
undoubtedly be killed.
Cate
Nope, no leash. He always makes a beeline for the back yard, and has
never strayed from that beeline, coming or going. I don't actually go
with him down the deck steps and into the yard.
Actually, I do now. Since Monday night.
Cate
Suja
"Janet B" <ja...@bestfriendsdogobedience.com> wrote in message:
> there's no second chance in Baltimore city. This dog would
> undoubtedly be killed.
Wow! That's pretty strict. I know that the local ordinances here allow for
a dog deemed 'dangerous' to continue to live, as long as the owners follow
the rules. A dog deemed 'vicious' will be PTS.
http://www.co.fairfax.va.us/police/animalservices/dangerous.htm
Suja
bet...@aol.com
Cate wrote:
> There is no fence between our neighbors' house and ours (yet). We have
> an informal system with them. We've each agreed to not let our dogs out
> for a pee if the others' dog(s) are already out.
>
> Monday night our system failed. I failed to see through some tree
> branches and didn't notice that their two dogs (one dog-aggressive, one
> not--at least not toward Orson) were already out.
>
> a scary swollen frankenfoot, a nasty limp, aggravated arthritis, and 10
> days of no exercise.
>
> somewhat assuaged knowing I was able to hold the 100lb dog to keep it
> from potentially becoming a 2-on-1.
Poor Orson, I hope he is feeling better soon.
>
> My lesson, for anyone who needs one, is no matter how many times
> something has worked in the past, don't assume it always will. Also
> don't assume just because the 10yo, 40lb dog is an absolute darling
> with people that she won't try to kill your 80lb dog. (I did not assume
> this, but it occurs to me someone might.)
>
> The poll
> How much, if any, would you ask the neighbor to pay toward the vet
> bills, if the following were true:
> - Your dog was attacked on your property.
> - The attack was sustained (shaking, re-gripping), not just a
> bite-and-run.
> - The attacking dog had attacked other dogs before.
> - Both you and the neighbor were negligent as far as making sure no one
> was already outside.
Cate, have you spoken with the neighbors yet about this? Maybe they'll
just volunteer up front an amount. If not, I would push for half. JMO.
Beth
>
> Cate
> p.s. Just since I haven't been here in a while: Orson also had colon
> polyp surgery in August. It's been a rough few months for him.
ceb
news:81fvo19aktpfa2h78...@4ax.com:
> Half. If I were the neighbor, I would offer more.
>
Yes, I would too. I would, in fact, bend over backwards in an attempt to
convince the injured party that such a thing could never happen again and
thus should not be reported and also to make sure there is no reason to sue
me.
ceb
@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
> Maybe
> with an owner that isn't as concerned as I am about a feud between
> neighbors.
>
This might be a good point to hammer home when discussing things with your
neighbor. You know, "I've always liked you and I understand dogs and you
and I have always gotten along, but I'm afraid that in the future you might
not be so lucky, and I certainly wouldn't want you to have to put your dog
down, or for you to get sued" etc etc. I think with clueless people it's
helpful to frame things in terms of their own self-interest.
sighthounds & siberians
>Melinda Shore wrote:
>
>> If I were the neighbor I think I'd offer to pay for the
>> whole thing. I might be inclined to ask for it depending on
>> circumstances (mostly on the neighbor's attitude and
>> willingness to correct the problem, somewhat on their
>> financial circumstances).
>
>Right after it happened, the owner did, more or less, offer to pay. He
>actually said "let me know how much this costs." Stupidly, I said I'd
>pay for the whole thing, because at that time, I assumed Orson needed
>only about $100 worth of stitches and exam costs. I felt, and still
>feel, that I equally share in the negligence that created the
>situation, so it was probably my guilt that led me to refuse money.
Legally, that may be true, mostly because you both agreed on that
system for letting your dogs out. But he's the one whose dog is dog
aggressive, and attacked your dog on your property.
How's Orson doing?
Mustang Sally
Cate
> Cate, have you spoken with the neighbors yet about this? Maybe they'll
> just volunteer up front an amount. If not, I would push for half. JMO.
I left them a very nice phone message when Orson was in surgery on
Tuesday but didn't mention an amount or ask for anything other than to
talk. I also asked about their dog, because while I didn't see Orson
biting back, I can't be sure if she was uninjured herself.
They haven't called me back. I think I'm giving them until tonight to
respond, and then I'll be more brusque in my invitation to come over,
see Orson's injuries (his bandages come off tomorrow and his leg will
look particularly gruesome), and have a chat.
Cate
ceb
news:Xns972062F796383...@128.143.2.66:
> I find it absolutely unbelievable that a dog-aggressive dog would ever
> be off-leash
Of course, I meant "off-leash in an uncontained area."
sighthounds & siberians
>Rocky wrote:
>> "Cate" <orson...@yahoo.com> said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
>>
>> > Monday night our system failed.
>>
>> I'm really and truly sorry for all of the dogs' injuries, but
>> were you out there with them?
>
>Yes. I was 10 feet away from Orson. I always stand outside when he's
>out there. We have a fenced yard, but our fence doesn't come up to our
>back door. The fence-free distance from door to the gate of our yard is
>about 20 feet. On a routine day, I spot for neighbor dogs, I let him
>out, he runs down the deck stairs and into the fenced area, and I stand
>on the deck and watch.
>
>That night, I let him out and instantly saw the other dogs were out. He
>tried to run into our yard (on our property the entire time), and she
>silently ran over and attacked. She got to him before I could. (Her
>owner was about 25 feet away.) The 100lb dog ran over too, and I
>grabbed him while the smaller dog attacked Orson. The neighbor came and
>kicked his dog off Orson.
What a nightmare. Under those circumstances, where she was right
there and clearly had no control over either of her dogs, on your
property, she will hopefully be receptive to the idea of paying
most/all of Orson's expenses. And Melinda's suggestion is an
excellent approach. I'm not sure I'd be comfortable having my
next-door neighbor's dog impounded and destroyed, but the neighbor
does need to know that this is a possibility.
Mustang Sally
Cate
> Legally, that may be true, mostly because you both agreed on that
> system for letting your dogs out.
Even though I keep saying we have an agreement, it's unspoken, de
facto. There has never been any conversation about it. It's just what
we've historically done.
> How's Orson doing?
I just woke him up because he was yelping in his sleep, poor guy. He's
doing pretty well, though. The vet said yesterday that when the
bandages come off tomorrow, we'll be horrified by the bruising. I'm
already shocked by the extent of the swelling, and just yesterday his
leg began to shake sometimes. He gets crated at night on the first
floor so he doesn't have to do stairs any more than necessary. The
range of motion in the leg has improved a lot.
He's also gone off his favorite snack: whole carrots. So he's getting
some pig ears instead.
Cate
sighthounds & siberians
wrote:
>
>"Cate" <orson...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>news:1133492387....@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>> There is no fence between our neighbors' house and ours (yet). We have
>> an informal system with them. We've each agreed to not let our dogs out
>> for a pee if the others' dog(s) are already out.
>>
>> Monday night our system failed. I failed to see through some tree
>> branches and didn't notice that their two dogs (one dog-aggressive, one
>> not--at least not toward Orson) were already out.
>
>> The poll
>> How much, if any, would you ask the neighbor to pay toward the vet
>> bills, if the following were true:
>> - Your dog was attacked on your property.
>> - The attack was sustained (shaking, re-gripping), not just a
>> bite-and-run.
>> - The attacking dog had attacked other dogs before.
>> - Both you and the neighbor were negligent as far as making sure no one
>> was already outside.
>>
>
>i would think your neighbors would offer to pay at least half, out of
>kindness or guilt. i know i would. however, if their dogs were already
>out, and you let yours out second, you technically are responsible for the
>break in the "system".
>
>it doesn't matter who's property it happened on, since you've basically
>agreed to share property until you get a fence installed.
I don't think that's what Cate said. She didn't say they shared a
yard; she said they shared a system for not letting their dogs out at
the same time. That does change the situation somewhat, but it most
certainly does not mean that it doesn't matter on whose property the
attack occurred. That always matters.
Mustang Sally
Cate
> Once they have the yard fenced, what do you think the odds are that
> they'll leave the dogs out there unattended? If you think that's a
> possibility, it might be worth making them aware - as much for their
> sake as for anything else - that a fence preventing an attack won't
> preclude their dog being deemed dangerous if they live in the city.
I'm shocked to learn that Baltimore can classify as vicious a dog who
aggresses at the fence line. Orson barks along our fenceline sometimes
when he's out for a pee, so I can't even go down that road.
If they have a fence containing their dogs, and their dogs aren't left
outside for a long time to bark incessantly, and their dogs aren't
neglected (IMO), then I'll be satisfied.
Cate
Janet B
their heels and said:
>
>I'm shocked to learn that Baltimore can classify as vicious a dog who
>aggresses at the fence line. Orson barks along our fenceline sometimes
>when he's out for a pee, so I can't even go down that road.
I would say the majority of dog owners in BCity have no idea what the
law says! Of course, PROVING that if the fence wasn't present, the
dog would bite or attack, is another story. Very hard to prove in
Orson's case, very easily proved in the neighbor's case.
For the record, in 5 years of holding hearings, I never heard one on a
dog "possibly" being able to be deemed vicious from their actions
behind a fence or on leash.
sighthounds & siberians
>sighthounds & siberians wrote:
>
>> Legally, that may be true, mostly because you both agreed on that
>> system for letting your dogs out.
>
>Even though I keep saying we have an agreement, it's unspoken, de
>facto. There has never been any conversation about it. It's just what
>we've historically done.
Well, that's an entirely different story then, IMO. As far as I'm
concerned there is no agreement. You let your blind dog out into your
yard, went outside with him, he was attacked by one of the neighbor's
dogs (which has attacked other dog(s) before), and both you and she
were unable to prevent it despite being 10 feet away. It's clearly
their fault, and I would try very diplomatically to make them see how
this situation would be viewed by AC or the courts, and that they have
a moral and legal responsibility to make sure their dog doesn't do
this again. Even if they immediately take measures to prevent that
happening, they still should pay for Orson's vet bills.
>I just woke him up because he was yelping in his sleep, poor guy. He's
>doing pretty well, though. The vet said yesterday that when the
>bandages come off tomorrow, we'll be horrified by the bruising. I'm
>already shocked by the extent of the swelling, and just yesterday his
>leg began to shake sometimes. He gets crated at night on the first
>floor so he doesn't have to do stairs any more than necessary. The
>range of motion in the leg has improved a lot.
What exactly were his injuries? Yep, you will be horrified by the
bruising. There's usually a lot of pulling and shaking involved in
dog fights, which causes tearing of the skin away from the fascia and
horrific bruising.
>He's also gone off his favorite snack: whole carrots. So he's getting
>some pig ears instead.
Good that he's eating some snacks, poor guy. Our crew sends white
light and good thoughts for his recovery.
Mustang Sally
diannes
>sighthounds & siberians wrote:
>
>> Legally, that may be true, mostly because you both agreed on that
>> system for letting your dogs out.
>
> Even though I keep saying we have an agreement, it's unspoken, de
> facto. There has never been any conversation about it. It's just what
> we've historically done.
Um. I think this makes a BIG difference. I wouldn't say you've got an
agreement; I'd say that so far you had (sensibly) managed to avoid letting
your dogs out when your neighbor's dog-aggressive dog is around. There
was a mistake here, but not in your failure to observe the neighbors'
dog in your yard when you let yours out; the main mistake is your
neighbors allowing their known dog-aggressive dog around other dogs
without supervision under any circumstances. It seems to me that they
should be liable for the entire vet bill.
And I agree with you that the fence situation needs to be addressed
ASAP. What a hard way to learn that lesson. Poor Orson. Give him an
ear-scritch from me, OK?
Dianne
Cate
> What exactly were his injuries? Yep, you will be horrified by the
> bruising. There's usually a lot of pulling and shaking involved in
> dog fights, which causes tearing of the skin away from the fascia and
> horrific bruising.
There was definitely shaking. It was horrible. He essentially just has
deep bite wounds and soft tissue damage--skin pulled away from the
fascia, like you said--cellulitis, etc. During surgery the vet opened
the lacerations wider to clean it all out really well, and put the
drain in. X-rays show no bone damage. They don't think there's joint
damage. The bites were concentrated on the upper part of the inside of
the foreleg and in the "armpit" area.
> Good that he's eating some snacks, poor guy. Our crew sends white
> light and good thoughts for his recovery.
Thanks!
Cate
sighthounds & siberians
>There was definitely shaking. It was horrible. He essentially just has
>deep bite wounds and soft tissue damage--skin pulled away from the
>fascia, like you said--cellulitis, etc. During surgery the vet opened
>the lacerations wider to clean it all out really well, and put the
>drain in. X-rays show no bone damage. They don't think there's joint
>damage. The bites were concentrated on the upper part of the inside of
>the foreleg and in the "armpit" area.
For some reason I'd pictured neck wounds, but maybe Orson's leg was
more accessible to the other dog. The armpit area's got to be
sensitive, though. Give him some rubs from me in an undamaged spot.
Good luck in dealing with your neighbor. Hopefully they'll be
reasonable and responsible. Seeing Orson with his bandages off should
help.
Mustang Sally
Melinda Shore
sighthounds & siberians <x...@ncweb.com> wrote:
>For some reason I'd pictured neck wounds, but maybe Orson's leg was
>more accessible to the other dog.
Dogs that are serious about the attack (i.e. it's not a
dominance display - they really want to hurt or kill the
other dog) will try to break the other dog's front legs
first, then go for the abdomen for the kill. It's really
awful.
cimawr
Cate wrote:
> There was definitely shaking. It was horrible. He essentially just has
> deep bite wounds and soft tissue damage--skin pulled away from the
> fascia, like you said--cellulitis, etc. During surgery the vet opened
> the lacerations wider to clean it all out really well, and put the
> drain in. X-rays show no bone damage. They don't think there's joint
> damage. The bites were concentrated on the upper part of the inside of
> the foreleg and in the "armpit" area.
Christ. DAMN good thing Orson is literally twice the other dog's
size!!
If that had been Rocsi, she'd be dead*; if Morag, either dead or
with broken bones and internal injuries.
*Which is why I can't afford to bother with tact when larger dogs
harass her at the park; with a 14-lb dog, there aren't any second
chances if a larger dog actually bites.
It's also why anyone with an unleashed female Pit gets "Please call
your dog NOW!!" if they show any interest whatsoever in either Morag or
Rocsi, and on the second offense gets "If she goes after my dog, I WILL
kick the shit out of her."
Last person I said that to got pissed off, but left the area; 30
seconds later, his dog made a completely unprovoked attack on another
female dog.
Robin Nuttall
> in that
> case, my dog would have been the aggressor, but it still
> pissed me off, because i was unable to take my dog
> outdoors--on my own property--because the neighbor's friend's
> dogs would not get the hell out of my yard.
I can't train in my own yard any more. I have a strip of yard outside
the dog exercise fence that I used to put jumps and weaves in. No more.
My neighbor's aggressive mix (some black furry thing) is always chained
outside in their back yard, and her chain reaches JUST to the edge of my
yard. And she spends every moment she sees my dogs trying to break her
chain to come attack them. And she's broken her chain before. Once she
broke through their screen door to charge around the house and nail
Viva, who was not only on leash but heeling. Yes, I made them pay the
fee. But I can SO relate to being limited by asshat neighbors. Until
that dog dies or until I can afford to buy and install a second fence
I'm just stuck with it.
>
>
> ugh. i don't blame you. roaming dogs are one of the things
> that really pisses me off. i have *no* patience or sense of
> humor about it.
>
Me neither. I call animal control. At once. First time I see them. Viva
and Cala will work themselves into a frenzy (especially Cala) because of
course they all make a beeline to my house to run the fence. And she's
happy to run right along with them. The noise is incredible.
sighthounds & siberians
>In article <7bs0p1h3g4jq0h5g7...@4ax.com>,
>sighthounds & siberians <x...@ncweb.com> wrote:
>>For some reason I'd pictured neck wounds, but maybe Orson's leg was
>>more accessible to the other dog.
>
>Dogs that are serious about the attack (i.e. it's not a
>dominance display - they really want to hurt or kill the
>other dog) will try to break the other dog's front legs
>first, then go for the abdomen for the kill. It's really
>awful.
Geez, that is awful. I've never seen that before, thank doG. Though
during the last really serious fight between our Dal and Sibe bitches,
the Dal sustained a cracked bone in her foreleg. She was always the
instigator; I suppose the Sibe had had enough of it. Their fights
definitely weren't dominance displays, and I was always convinced that
they'd fight to the death if left to their own.
Mustang Sally
cimawr
>need to understand that if your dog attacks another dog >and
>the owner reports it, the city can confiscate your dog and
>have him destroyed."
In Baltimore City, that's almost certainly "WILL confiscate and have
her destroyed".
That's one of the things that utterly pisses me off about people who
*repeatedly* fail to control aggressive dogs (human- and
dog-aggressive) - they purport to care about their dogs, yet put them
at risk of being seized and killed.
(And don't get me started on the commercial dog-walker* who continued
to not only walk a human-aggressive Boxer on our local trails, but to
LET HIM OFF LEASH, despite at least two serious bites to humans.)
*Janet - this wasn't J.B., but one of his former employees; although
he's the one who orginally started taking the dog out. And of course,
he was guilty of the same thing with a Labrador a few years earlier.
cimawr
Should have been "J.Z.", but I'm betting you knew who I meant anyway.
<G>
Rocky
rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
>> I'm really and truly sorry for all of the dogs' injuries,
>> but were you out there with them?
> She says this in the original post: "My guilt is somewhat
> assuaged knowing I was able to hold the 100lb dog to keep
> it from potentially becoming a 2-on-1." That sounds like
> she was out there.
Thanks!
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
Rocky
>> I'm really and truly sorry for all of the dogs' injuries,
>> but were you out there with them?
>
> Yes. I was 10 feet away from Orson. I always stand outside
> when he's out there.
Thank you for the clarification. I have had dreams (well,
nightmares) about what you've gone through.
Rocky sends his best. Friday takes a while to warm up to nekkid
dogs but is very perceptive when it comes to dogs which are
hurting.
Cate
> Thank you for the clarification. I have had dreams (well,
> nightmares) about what you've gone through.
The nightmarish thing is that I was right there and couldn't do a damn
thing to prevent it. And even then I couldn't be the one to pull her
off him because I was occupied with the huge dog. If another person
hadn't been there to kick them apart, Orson might be dead.
> Rocky sends his best. Friday takes a while to warm up to nekkid
> dogs but is very perceptive when it comes to dogs which are
> hurting.
Far from nekkid, Orson has two coats! Half of which seems to gather in
the corners of my living room.
Cate
Melinda Shore
Cate <orson...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>The nightmarish thing is that I was right there and couldn't do a damn
>thing to prevent it. And even then I couldn't be the one to pull her
>off him because I was occupied with the huge dog.
I have a friend whose elderly dachshund (on leash) was
attacked by two Akitas (also on leash) right in front of her
apartment. The two undergrads walking the Akitas just stood
there and flapped their arms helplessly while their dogs
mauled Nicholas quite badly. I believe my somewhat
diminuitive friend ended up wading in there and kicking the
crap out of the Akitas.
--
Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis - sh...@panix.com
Don't think you are going to conceal faults by concealing evidence
that they ever existed. -- Dwight D Eisenhower
culprit
"Janet B" <ja...@bestfriendsdogobedience.com> wrote in message
news:e3k0p15jrebkvpsic...@4ax.com...
> I agree with that! I can't imagine having to check before exiting my
> house.
i can. i have coyotes and bobcats to watch for, as well as deer, rabbits
and other distractions. anyone without a proper fence must check their
yard. it doesn't matter whether the neighbors have a fence. none of mine
do, so i check for their dogs too before we go out. management and all
that.
-kelly
culprit
> Well, this is what scares the living crap out of me. The attacking dog
> was 40 pounds, and despite my lack of experience with dog attacks, she
> certainly seemed like she was in it to win. Orson weighs 80 pounds. The
> male dog she lives with weighs 100 pounds (with no visible fat, only
> muscle) and is only 1 year old, still acting very much the puppy. He is
> currently not dog-aggressive, but I'm afraid he's going to learn that
> trait from the female. There's no doubt in my mind that if the male had
> attacked Orson, Orson wouldn't have survived.
>
> Also, these people live on the corner. A quiet street with many
> pedestrians--lots of them walking dogs--abuts their unfenced yard. It
> seems only a matter of time before a passing dog is attacked. Maybe
> with an owner that isn't as concerned as I am about a feud between
> neighbors.
i didn't realize the dogs were running about all over the neighborhood.
yes, that is a concern. fortunately, i don't think most dogs learn that
type of "kill kill kill" aggression. thank goodness.
-kelly
culprit
>
> Actually, our properties abut each other, with no fence in between.
> There is no agreement to share any property. It's our driveway that
> bounds their yard. We try to park our cars in a way such that their
> dogs have obstacles if they do come onto our property.
got it. i thought system = agreement. i misunderstood.
> I agree that I have to take measures to protect my dog due to this
> situation. And I feel negligent. However, I was already standing close
> by, and I couldn't stop the attack. Having Orson on a leash wouldn't
> have stopped it either, or even kept their dogs from coming onto my
> property. This is the point at which the burden is on them to keep
> their dogs on their own property.
yes, their dogs should be leashed at all times if they can't control their
aggressive dog. besides, walking dogs is good exercise. believe me, i'm
finding this out (dropped two jeans sizes since firing the dog walker.
walking two high energy dogs is a work out and a half!)
-kelly
Cate
> i can. i have coyotes and bobcats to watch for, as well as deer, rabbits
> and other distractions. anyone without a proper fence must check their
> yard. it doesn't matter whether the neighbors have a fence. none of mine
> do, so i check for their dogs too before we go out. management and all
> that.
>
> -kelly
I would probably watch even if our back door opened directly into a
contained area, but mostly because of Orson's blindness. Despite
that--or maybe because of it--he has enormous prey drive and would be
likely to kill a squirrel or rabbit if he caught one back there. He
often pronks around, chasing out birdies and such. One day he killed a
baby bird that had fallen from its nest. I did see it on the ground
before I let him out, but it was a starling, so I said "Darwin rules!"
and let Orson rip.
Cate
Rocky
> If I were in your place, I'd be telling him that I want to
> maintain a friendly relationship, and I don't want to be
> forced to have to take legal action, but that I won't be
> able to live with myself if another dog gets hurt or
> killed.
I think that this is a practicable approach. What with Cate's
willingness to "deal" on a fence, I think that most neighbours
would agree.
Cate
> i didn't realize the dogs were running about all over the neighborhood.
> yes, that is a concern.
Actually, I was referring to dogs being walked on leash on the street
next to their house. But now that you mention it, there are a few
jackasses in the neighborhood that apparently puposely let their dogs
out to roam.
Cate
culprit
>
> I'm trying not to inject my emotions into this, but yeah, they're not
> exactly models of responsibility.
>
> It's also ironic to me that the dogs' ears are in tiny, harsh-looking
> fighting crops. When the male was a puppy, the owners delighted in
> having him wear a spiked collar.
i was going to say wait to report it to see their response, but after
hearing this, i'd say report it. i hate these kind of pit owners. they
make the rest of us look bad.
i saw a pit on the street the other day with a heavy chain around his neck
and somehow going through his mouth (!). the guy said it was to make his
jaw stronger.
i told him that a nice beef femur would do a better job, and without
knocking all his teeth loose.
-kelly
sighthounds & siberians
Heh. Go Orson. Having dogs that primarily use their sight to hunt, I
got a very funny, cute mental image of Orson pronking around chasing
things...
Mustang Sally
culprit
>
> I just woke him up because he was yelping in his sleep, poor guy. He's
> doing pretty well, though. The vet said yesterday that when the
> bandages come off tomorrow, we'll be horrified by the bruising. I'm
> already shocked by the extent of the swelling, and just yesterday his
> leg began to shake sometimes. He gets crated at night on the first
> floor so he doesn't have to do stairs any more than necessary. The
> range of motion in the leg has improved a lot.
oh, poor guy. i feel terrible for him.
Manu had was was nearly a Very Bad Incident with the neighbor's old Lab when
we first moved here, and watching the Lab limp around for a couple days
nearly broke my heart (he has arthritis anyway, i think the shaking he got
just made it worse). the neighbors refused vet treatment because he didn't
have any bad wounds, but i nearly drove him there myself. thankfully, he
was back to himself after a few days.
he's not allowed in our yard anymore. it's sad, he sits on the other side
of the fence and wags his tail and whines. :-(
i really hope Orson feels better soon.
-kelly
culprit
"sighthounds & siberians" <x...@ncweb.com> wrote in message
news:ut31p1thtg5pelmt4...@4ax.com...
*sigh*
doing the Buddhist thing has me all kinds of conflicted on the dogs killing
things. i know they want the bunnies bad. they know where they live, they
chase them, and i call them off because i don't want them killing innocent
creatures. i have to remember that it's part of the circle of life and all
that. but they weren't bred to hunt other animals, right? is that a good
enough excuse? Hindus believe that dogs can meditate and chant mantras with
you. they believe that this will help the dog attain a human form in the
next life. i'd love to meet Manu walking down the street when i'm 80 or
so... :-)
*sigh*
now i'm getting all philosophical again. crud.
-kelly
culprit
"Rocky" <2d...@rocky-dog.com> wrote in message
news:Fri972071B79595Aau...@rocky-dog.com...
this is what we're doing. we're helping the neighbors build the fence that
borders our property line. seems fair to both of us.
-kelly
Cate
> i was going to say wait to report it to see their response, but after
> hearing this, i'd say report it. i hate these kind of pit owners. they
> make the rest of us look bad.
Yes, they do. And they ruin some potentially lovely dogs while they're
at it.
They're not responsible owners, to be sure, but they're not as bad as
some of the asshats I see around town. Like the guy I see with his pit
in a harness straight out of Zed's house of horrors in Pulp Fiction,
making the dog swim in place for an hour against the current in a local
stream. Maybe he's doing physical therapy, and maybe he's got a BSM
fetish he expresses in his dog's attire, but I don't think so.
Cate
Rocky
>> Rocky sends his best. Friday takes a while to warm up to
>> nekkid dogs but is very perceptive when it comes to dogs
>> which are hurting.
>
> Far from nekkid, Orson has two coats! Half of which seems
> to gather in the corners of my living room.
Labs are nekkid dogs, according to Friday, and goofy - a
combination which requires life skills teaching. Friday is
always happy to be a mentor.
culprit
yeah, i find the dogs like it more if you just throw a tennis ball upstream.
:-)
-kelly
culprit
> Labs are nekkid dogs, according to Friday, and goofy - a
> combination which requires life skills teaching. Friday is
> always happy to be a mentor.
hey, nekkid goofy dogs are my lively hood! what else would entertain me
while i'm stuck on a three month hiatus from work?
-kelly
Cate
> now i'm getting all philosophical again. crud.
Well, I eat meat, so I can only get so philosophical about letting my
dog kill things.
Also, have I mentioned lately how much I loathe starlings and curse the
bastard that's responsible for their presence on this continent?
Also also, we recently acquired rodent invaders in our home, and I'm
not feeling too charitable. We've been poisoning the bastards for weeks
and yet they still taunt us. We have traps EVERYWHERE. I caught one. By
the tip of his tail. I let him go outside. His friends are still here.
Cate
culprit
i don't eat meat, but the dogs do, i won't deny them that. we do have mice,
and i'm not sure what to do with them. as long as they stay in the garage,
i think i'll just leave them there. :-)
i have an Indian friend who had a German Shepherd when he was growing up.
dog food is kind of a rarity in India, so they fed him raw meat. except
they were vegetarian. so dad would go to the Halal market, lied and said
his wife was Muslim, and buy big cuts of beef to feed the dog. i guess they
got over their religious feelings for their dog's sake. :-)
-kelly
lightlady
sounds like they're training them for fighting :-( we have a problem with
it in my area. and yes, the owners encourage dog aggression, til the other
dog owners grab the cell-phone then they disappear fast. can't go anywhere
without a spray bottle of vinegar to ward off attackers <sigh>
--
lynn
culprit
"lightlady" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:3vbk3vF...@individual.net...
>>
>
> sounds like they're training them for fighting :-( we have a problem
> with
> it in my area. and yes, the owners encourage dog aggression, til the
> other
> dog owners grab the cell-phone then they disappear fast. can't go
> anywhere
> without a spray bottle of vinegar to ward off attackers <sigh>
*sigh*
ok, first, you don't "train" pit bulls to be the kind of aggressive that
this dog was to Orson. either they've got it or they don't. some kids
think they can do it, but they're mistaken. and they're the kid of kids who
leave non aggressive pits half starved to wander the streets until some kind
soul takes them in to rescue.
second, a spray bottle of vinegar ain't gonna do nuthin' if your dog is
attacked by a dog aggressive pit.
cattle prods can be helpful though.
-kelly
Alison
> There is no fence between our neighbors' house and ours (yet). We
have
> an informal system with them. We've each agreed to not let our dogs
out
> for a pee if the others' dog(s) are already out.
>
> Monday night our system failed. I failed to see through some tree
> branches and didn't notice that their two dogs (one dog-aggressive,
one
> not--at least not toward Orson) were already out.
>
>> The poll
> How much, if any, would you ask the neighbor to pay toward the vet
> bills, if the following were true:
> - Your dog was attacked on your property.
> - The attack was sustained (shaking, re-gripping), not just a
> bite-and-run.
> - The attacking dog had attacked other dogs before.
> - Both you and the neighbor were negligent as far as making sure no
one
> was already outside.
>
> Cate
Sorry to hear this, it must have been very upsetting. I hope Orson
will be ok.
In this case, your neighbours dogs were already out and you let your
dogs out, so I wouldn't expect them to pay but if you both didn't
check then I think you should pay half each.
If this were me , if it wasn't possible to fence the whole yard , I
would have fenced a small part by the back door.
Alison
ceb
@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
> The nightmarish thing is that I was right there and couldn't do a damn
> thing to prevent it.
That *is* the nightmarish thing. I know it's awful.
--
Catherine
& Zoe the cockerchow
& Queenie the black gold retriever
& Rosalie the calico
ceb
news:3vbi1oF...@individual.net:
> doing the Buddhist thing has me all kinds of conflicted on the dogs
> killing things. i know they want the bunnies bad. they know where
> they live, they chase them, and i call them off because i don't want
> them killing innocent creatures. i have to remember that it's part of
> the circle of life and all that. but they weren't bred to hunt other
> animals, right? is that a good enough excuse? Hindus believe that
> dogs can meditate and chant mantras with you. they believe that this
> will help the dog attain a human form in the next life. i'd love to
> meet Manu walking down the street when i'm 80 or so... :-)
>
First off, I would LOVE to meet Manu walking down the street!
Secondly, I feel the same about the hunting instinct. I do try to curb it
in the dogs (but of course I know I can only prevent behavior, not change
instincts).
Because I still dream of the peaceable kingdom, way off there in the
future someplace.
However, I do think the Hindus might have it backwards -- maybe if humans
are good enough, they will get to come back as dogs?
Cate
> i don't eat meat, but the dogs do, i won't deny them that. we do have mice,
> and i'm not sure what to do with them. as long as they stay in the garage,
> i think i'll just leave them there. :-)
To paraphrase a recent speech, the mice in our house are trying to
establish a totalitarian rodent empire that reaches from the kitchen to
the bedroom. These mice have nothing to offer my people. They're trying
to shake our will to establish their objectives. The mice in our house
share the same ideology as the mice outside. Those mice share the same
ideology with the rats in the alley, the rats who eat unspeakable
things. Just last week I saw a mouse crawl out of Orson's kong! I
recently spied tiny tiny footprints and lick marks in a still-hot
saucepan. One of these evil creatures was spotted near the computer
cables in my office.
Against the mice in our house there is only one effective response: We
will never back down, we will never give in, and we will never accept
anything less than complete victory!
Cate
shelly
>In this case, your neighbours dogs were already out and you
>let your dogs out, so I wouldn't expect them to pay but if
>you both didn't check then I think you should pay half each.
are there no such things as private property and trespass in
England?
--
shelly
http://www.cat-sidh.net
http://cat-sidh.blogspot.com/
Cate
> ok, first, you don't "train" pit bulls to be the kind of aggressive that
> this dog was to Orson. either they've got it or they don't.
To be clear, I know for a fact my neighbors aren't training (or
attempting to train) their dogs to fight. However, when I alluded to
the jackass in my local park, I certainly do suspect he thinks he's
training his dog for some kind of aggressive competition.
Cate
Alison
"Alison" <ali...@XYZallofus2.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:dmq6f3$32k$1...@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk...
> ">
> Sorry to hear this, it must have been very upsetting. I hope Orson
> will be ok.
> In this case, your neighbours dogs were already out and you let your
> dogs out, so I wouldn't expect them to pay but if you both didn't
> check then I think you should pay half each.
> If this were me , if it wasn't possible to fence the whole yard , I
> would have fenced a small part by the back door.
Just read some more of your posts. You do have part of it fenced.
Sorry !
Alison
Melinda Shore
Really? Those are some brazen mice you've got there.
I've been pulling the sled together in preparation for
winter (picture me and 6 dogs standing out in the yard,
staring up at the sky, tapping our feet and saying "c'mon,
snow, dammit"). I retrieved the sled bag from the new barn
and when I opened it up to air it out I found that four
field mice had taken up residence (after gnawing a hole in
the side of the bag). I dumped them out and they went
scurrying away, and they've probably taken up residence and
are chewing through stuff in the other barn.
I have a friend who found a couple of rats in her horse barn
and put poison out, but she's worried about inadvertently
poisoning her way up the food chain.
--
Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis - sh...@panix.com
Don't think you are going to conceal faults by concealing evidence
that they ever existed. -- Dwight D Eisenhower
Cate
> Just read some more of your posts. You do have part of it fenced.
> Sorry !
It's hard to explain without an extremely boring post, but it's
impossible to fence the area directly around our back door. Well, let
me rephrase: we *could* do it, if we were able to move our driveway and
our 2-car garage to another location on our property. Which is less
than a fifth of an acre.
Cate
Cate
> In article <1133551125....@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>,
> Cate <orson...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >Just last week I saw a mouse crawl out of Orson's kong!
>
> Really? Those are some brazen mice you've got there.
Twice. Brazen is a good word for it. I'm disgusted.
> I've been pulling the sled together in preparation for
> winter (picture me and 6 dogs standing out in the yard,
> staring up at the sky, tapping our feet and saying "c'mon,
> snow, dammit").
Me too. We had flakes for 5 minutes today, and you would've thought I
was 5.
I retrieved the sled bag from the new barn
> and when I opened it up to air it out I found that four
> field mice had taken up residence (after gnawing a hole in
> the side of the bag). I dumped them out and they went
> scurrying away, and they've probably taken up residence and
> are chewing through stuff in the other barn.
We saw evidence of mice in our Ithaca house, but, after the cat
dispatched one inside the house, I expect they were happy to survive on
wood and insulation in the walls. They were easy to co-exist with.
> I have a friend who found a couple of rats in her horse barn
> and put poison out, but she's worried about inadvertently
> poisoning her way up the food chain.
Yeah, that's been a worry of mine as well, getting the poison into
places that neither the cat nor the dog can reach. Plus--it isn't even
working! They're gobbling up the poison at the rate of a tray per week
(maybe 2-3 oz of pellets) and still showing up on the stove.
Cate
Melinda Shore
Cate <orson...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>We saw evidence of mice in our Ithaca house, but, after the cat
>dispatched one inside the house, I expect they were happy to survive on
>wood and insulation in the walls. They were easy to co-exist with.
Greta had a gentle Collie soul, and her usual attitude
towards the mice inside the house seemed to be "Isn't it
nice that we can all be together like this?" One day,
though, I came home from work to find blood spattered all
over the kitchen and one completely wrung-out mouse carcass.
I have *no* idea how she made such a mess with just one
mouse, but fortunately she never did it again.
ceb
news:1133551125....@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com:
:) That speech definitely works better applied to rodents than it does
applied to humans.